111: Connecting with yourself and leaning into your Wise Power with Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer and Alexandra Pope

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer and Alexandra Pope are pioneers in the emerging field of menstruality, which my spell check says isn’t even a word! Basically they have created a new lexicon, along with a new approach not only to our health and wellbeing, but our creativity and leadership, and our spiritual life – all based on becoming conscious of the power of monthly cycles. They are the co-founders of Red School, and co-authors of Wild Power: discover the magic of the menstrual cycle and awaken the feminine path to power . Their menopause book Wise Power: Discover the liberating power of menopause to awaken authority, purpose and belonging came out in 2022. I tried to interview them then, sent a few emails, didn’t hear anything back. And then, they wrote to me – and as you will hear, they did it right at the perfect time. 

Between Sjanjie and Alexandra they have more than 45 years of experience doing this kind of work, and today they teach around the world, helping women understand that from puberty to perimenopause and beyond, we are engaged in a bio-psycho-social-spiritual process of maturing… A message that is very, very different to what most of us are used to getting. 

The discussion covers the practical and cyclical nature of menopause, the significance of menstrual cycle awareness, and the power of self-care and setting boundaries. They also address the often-overlooked grief and the mental health challenges associated with menopause, emphasizing the need for community, support, and a broader societal understanding of this pivotal life stage. The episode concludes with a look at the potential of menopause as a time of personal and spiritual awakening, offering practical tips and discussing their upcoming course to help women navigate this profound transition.

00:00 Introduction to Perimenopause and Menopause

00:20 Challenges in Finding Menopause Support

00:42 The Role of MidiHealth

01:18 Personal Journey and Podcast Sponsorship

04:54 The Impact of 'Wise Power' Book

07:49 Menopause as a Transformative Experience

09:57 Cycle Awareness and Menopause

15:49 Navigating Menopause with Awareness

26:16 The Power of Menopause

37:11 Acknowledging the Struggles of Menopause

38:33 The Role of Modern Medicine

39:06 Cultural Crisis and Menopause

40:28 The Importance of Community Support

42:42 Practical Tips for Navigating Menopause

46:56 Embracing the Power of 'No'

47:36 Navigating Relationship Changes

53:26 The Psychological and Spiritual Journey

54:13 Addressing the Topic of Suicide

01:01:20 The Intersection of Menopause and Global Awakening

01:07:11 Redefining Menopause

01:11:13 Course Information and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

0:00

I'm Anne Marie McQueen, journalist and proud 50 ish woman, and we are here looking for the true truth in perimenopause, menopause, midlife, and beyond. Opening our minds to other possibilities is not always easy. Hot flash ink. You're all woman to me. All right, Anne Marie. Anyone who listens to the hot flashing podcast will know I've had a hard time finding help with my perimenopause and menopause symptoms, whether it was trouble sleeping or extreme anxiety or vagina stuff. I've encountered roadblock after roadblock in doctors who didn't know anything about taking care of women like me. It made everything harder than it had to be. That's why I'm so happy that there are companies like MidiHealth stepping into the gap and sponsoring podcasts like this one. Their supportive, comprehensive, and holistic approach to the menopause transition will provide you with what we all need most, a personalized care plan. Their virtual care clinic is easy to use and covered by most insurance plans. You can chat with your specialists during an appointment or message 24 seven. You don't have to deal with this alone. Any longer book your visit today at join midi. com. That's J O I N M I D I. com.

Ann Marie: 1:15

It's just amazing to speak to you. I tried to interview both of you when your book came out in 2022, the book that I absolutely adored. And I've done giveaways just on my own, like just if I'm in a mood, I'll say. Do this and I'll send you a copy and nothing happened. And I, I was in a, like, I was busy and I probably didn't try as hard as I could have. Um, and then I thought, Oh, well, you know, I'll talk to them eventually. And I just think it's really special because I know Louise who works with you was the one who reached out, but I lost my father in February and I put my platform on hold. Because it was, you know, sudden and I, you know, because, and, um, and I had already put it on hold to take a break, partly because of the amazing sort of wisdom that you imparted in your book, and I realized that I needed just a break to retool and reboot and rest a bit, and then my father died. And the reason I'm telling you this is, I was thinking, I don't know if I can come back to this because this is really hit me really hard And um, I, I had a couple of things that happened that made me think I want to come back. One of them was I got a sponsor for the podcast, Midi Health, which I'm really excited about. And then I got an email from Louise saying that you would want to come on the, or suggesting you two for the podcast. And I just thought, Oh my gosh, like they were like, boo, boo, like that. And I just thought, okay, like, come on, I can't turn down a sponsor and I can't turn down these two. So I think it's like kind of, yeah. Yeah, like I'm back at it. I don't know if I would be.

Sjanie: 2:49

Well, you can blame, you can, you can blame us all the way.

Alexandra: 2:54

Bastard women.

Ann Marie: 2:57

That break never really happened, by the way, so that's still gonna come. But anyway, I'm so happy to, uh, to, to speak to you. And I'm nervous to just do this book justice because I devoured it. I'm going to read it again. It came at just the right time. I feel like it's the book every woman needs to read. It's the counterbalance to this conversation. So I'm worried about not doing all of this justice or asking you questions that are like, Anne Marie, how can we possibly explain that to you? That's, uh, you know, an entire book worth, but I guess, You're good at this and you'll do your best.

Alexandra: 3:28

Yeah. Yeah. It's an occupational hazard. Yeah.

Sjanie: 3:31

One thing that's guaranteed is that we won't have enough time to say all the things we wanna say. Right. We can't talk for four hours. This is not your, any conversation is a good conversation. And honestly, just the platform and the space to share this with you and have your listeners listen is. A real gift to us, you know, so we're very, very grateful. So however it goes, Annemarie, it's good. It's good for us.

Alexandra: 3:58

I think the fact that it's so meaningful for you, isn't really good as well. It's like you, you're inside the material. It's, it's the material is, um, it's real for you. You're working the material, you know, you know, the inside story. So that is, makes it really. juicy, I think heartwarming as well.

Ann Marie: 4:21

And I think other, other women must be getting so much from, from coming across you and all the places that you've been, because it's just such a counterweight. And when you're becoming, we'll talk about this, you know, your inner knowing, but Um, it's always felt like there's so much more to this than what we are told in a lot of spaces. And so to just have someone tell you that just to have, you know, people who have walked with so many women confirm your beliefs, that's like, it's amazing. So I hope everyone who listens gets that. Um, okay. So first of all, the reaction to wise power, can you sort of frame that for me? Cause it's been two years now, I guess that you've been talking about it.

Alexandra: 5:07

Um, it has been. Well, we've only heard good stuff basically. We don't know, but it is. I mean we get such beautiful emails from people about basically how it saved their life, because this feeling of, it's all over. And, you know, this thing of dying. I mean, they use that word and, um, that this has opened up a, you know, they're alive now. They're alive now. And, um, and it's also sort of coupled with doing a course, uh, Great Awaken, of course, as well. Um, but it is this feeling of relief and, oh, I knew there was something more. And also that the book is a kind of medicine in itself. They feel sort of, the book travels with them through menopause. Um, and we often hear, oh yeah, uh, people giving away copies. Like you're giving away copies. It's like, oh you have to read this, you have to read this, you know. Um, so there's a lovely word of mouth thing happening. And because we take a very strong position. Yeah, I do. We're both. We're both.

Ann Marie: 6:30

You're both. You're both. Shani, how about you?

Sjanie: 6:35

Hearing what you say, Alexandra, there's um, something I'm very grateful is that we wrote the book when we did, which was not our plan. We had other plans, but the publishers said to us, Either you write a book on menopause or we'll get someone else to write a book on menopause. We're like,

Alexandra: 7:00

that gets us going nowhere else.

Sjanie: 7:06

And I'm so, I'm so glad for that, um, push. To do it because when our book came out and around the time it came out, there was such a surge in this conversation around menopause. And because menopause is showing up as such a disaster for so many people, because it feels. like death and because there was such a health crisis happening around it, such a physical health crisis, but also an mental and emotional health crisis that's happening around it. Um, the conversation that quickly dominated was one about menopause as a problem that needs to be fixed. And I'm so grateful our book has come out, as you say, Annemarie, as a counterweight, because really we're bringing in a much deeper truth, which is that, you know, this isn't a design flaw. This isn't a problem. Yes, there's this huge fallout happening for so many people going through menopause, but it's because We've been disconnected from our bodies and from our cyclical nature and from our menstrual cycle and all that inherent education that would have happened had we all been taught cycle awareness when we came into our menstruating years. And had we all been practicing it and had we all felt this natural graduation into menopause and had all the, um, embodied knowing that it takes to traverse this. huge physiological, emotional, spiritual transition. So, you know, there is a huge recovery to do, but I'm very glad that our book came out when it did, because I would have been sitting in my bedroom crying if the only conversation out there was one of the, you know, the problems of menopause. Because all of the dignity and power of what's actually happening here would just get subsumed in that conversation. And the fallout of that would be tragic, truly tragic.

Ann Marie: 9:13

Like, um, lest anyone be getting sad or angry that they didn't have cycle awareness. And I think many women my age didn't, you know, we, we just didn't, we just, you know, you powered through, you were told to power through and whatever you read. Don't be sad because I was getting sad as I was reading. And then you told me that I could do it retrospectively with the I'm still working on that because it's, it's, it's hard, but Anyway, I just want to point that out that can you just explain a little bit about that? Because if someone hasn't done had been aware of their cycle and you figure it out in your forties, when your cycle is already changing, like what do you do then? And then how do you use the moon?

Sjanie: 9:54

It's a really, really good question. I actually just want to add another piece here because there is the retrospective work of recovering some, um, embodied knowing that was lost, but also even if you come to this knowing when you reach menopause, menopause itself is remedy. If you can go through menopause with awareness and with the context that we share in our book, if we can understand really the deeper processes at work, menopause is a process of recovery in and of itself. And menopause does put us back inside this embodied knowing and back inside this, um, cyclical, deep trust in cyclical life. You know, there's nothing like navigating the death, the end of a cycle consciously to really restore your faith in cycles and in life being a, an ever unfolding cyclical phenomena. So there's also that, and that's really our book is for people who don't have cycle awareness, as well as those who have had the miraculous privilege of having it. So, yeah, I think that's another piece.

Alexandra: 11:14

I just want to really emphasize actually what Shani has just said then, and also to add that, um, grief, because let yourself have the grief, because actually it'll open the door. to something. It'll take you inside yourself and it'll take you into a greater tenderness and intimacy with yourself. And so in a way it can be the doorway in to everything Shani has said there around menopause being its own kind of cosmos, if you like, and that's going to hold you and that if you, you know, follow the guidelines, the instructions within our book. in, um, as much as you can, you're going to feel the, uh, the sort of intelligence, the logos of menopause at work, the spirit of menopause at work within you. Um, so, um, it's so interesting, this thing of, of cyclical consciousness and having missed out on it. Um, and I think once you have, you, once you are in menopause, Um, in a way, I think the dominant note is you just surrender to, uh, the, uh, dynamic of what we articulate in the book, you and, and just work with that, work with the, you know, the instructions we give you. Um, and. You can, at this point, also, if you want to, just pace the cycle of the moon, and, but I don't push that for those who are in menopause, I just say it may help you, but it may be not. information that's just too much right now. And, um, so, um, but it can be very helpful coming out of menopause, the other side. So I always now as a postmenopausal woman, I always pay attention to where I am in the moon cycle. And it is a pale, Um, how can I say it's a very, you know, it's just an echo of my experience of men, of my menstruating years. Um, but it is nonetheless has a distinct, a distinctness to it. Um, just pacing that energy of, You know, emptiness, the dark moon, which of course is equivalent to menstruation, where, and I can still, I can, I can feel the stillness of the dark moon and the ecstasy of it, which is what I used to experience when I blared. I used to feel so freaking ecstatic, and I get a hit of that around, but, but, and then, Just as I did with the menstrual cycle, I have to really pace myself in the days after the new moon because I can feel it, you know, this rising energy again, and I'm a bit like a newborn foal whose legs aren't very sturdy. And if I go galloping off, I'm going to have trouble. And so I really consciously pace that expansion. Up to Full Moon. And, um, I don't do it in a very obsessive, detailed way. I just, you know, I, I will note days, but, uh, it, it's the days I most note are around Full Moon.'cause I can get very high then too. Um, but also the days coming into the Dark Moon and they're the most distinct for me. It's a way for me to manage my energies on a day to day basis, actually, it's very, very practical.

Sjanie: 14:59

Yeah, one of the things, one of the things that cycle awareness teaches us, which is so simple, but so profound is how to rest in a rhythmic way that makes our lives sustainable. So you know, menstruation is that time of pause and letting go. And I think when it comes to those who haven't had cycle awareness, a very simple thing to know is just that menopause in and of itself. Is that pause is that time to rest just in a much greater cycle in the cycle of your menstruating years. So, overall, we're needing much more rest and retreat and respite. throughout menopause. And when we say menopause, by the way, we're talking about a multi year psycho spiritual transition, not just the day when you haven't bled for a year, there's a much bigger process around that. So we talking about a few years of innerness and restedness and backing up from all the, um, all the pushing that we've done for most of our lives and all the out there ness and the driving and, um, yeah, the stuff of our menstruating years. So even, so if you are in menopause, the moon is just a lovely little reminder when it's dark moon. Oh, okay. Rest. But you can have those reminders anytime, you know, you daily rest, weekend rest, nighttime rest, but it's about more rest and the moon. When you're in menopause can just be that little sort of nudge that says, okay, we're back to the dark moon. Have you taken a couple, two, three days off yet really retreat and let go.

Ann Marie: 16:54

Did you know I also have a substack? That's just a fancy way of saying I have a newsletter, but listen, it's not like every other newsletter. I am the only journalist in the world who's made menopause my beat. And each week I share research, news, products, tips, and tricks from the world of menopause and midlife. Sometimes I even write an essay. Hot Flash Ink on Substack is where I pull together everything that's here and in the Menosphere. And I break it down just for you. So that we can try and make sense of it all and figure out what to do together. In real time, join more than 5, 000 women, practitioners, CEOs, and more, and become a subscriber today. You can get my podcast as well as special video and audio drops you can't get anywhere else. Sign up today at hotflashinc. substack. You mentioned something. The big question is why are women having such a hard time? And of course we know some people are saying, well, women didn't go through menopause. Woman used to die at 50 and menopause is only a hundred years old, which is one of the narratives that makes no sense. When you look at history, but I hear that still all the time from people who should definitely know better. Then you have people saying, you know, people, smart people saying, why is this? Well, there's a health crisis. There's an environmental onslaught. And the conversation kind of gets focused on that kind of thing. But you mentioned the disconnect. And there's a very popular influencer who just made a video saying women are dead inside when they're in 40. She's a big proponent of taking testosterone and whatever, and maybe you need some hormone therapy to sort of jizz you up so you can make this transition. But you, you spoke to the disconnect. Whatever happened, we, we are entering this completely disconnected. Can you speak to that when you're talking to people around the world and teaching? How is, this is making it, is this the missing piece that's part of the reason everyone's suffering so much?

Alexandra: 18:50

Yes. And. Shani alluded to it earlier when she spoke about, you know, the missing piece of menstrual cycle awareness. So at its, you know, fundamental level, menstrual cycle awareness is the art of and practice of pacing your energy. your energy and your nervous system. It's about pacing your actual capacity and respecting, uh, this rhythm of, um, on and off, if you like, which is the nature of all cycles. So it's a real respect for cyclical life. And we all know how shitty We feel when we haven't had a good night's sleep, you know, and that's, that's the circadian rhythm that we honor by sleeping at night and then being active in the day. So it's the same principle at work with the menstrual cycle and the menstrual cycle, when you're actually practicing cycle awareness, you're actually connected. to yourself each day. It's like a checking in with yourself and with your needs, with what your actual energy is and making choices from that place. So menstrual cycle awareness builds actually self confidence and capacity to assert boundaries and, um, and to know what your needs are and care for them. So can you really hear? The connection that's at work there, Anne Marie, it's, it's really basic, very grounded work. And, and, um, I mean, there's so much more that's going on with menstrual cycle awareness, but at this foundational level, it is this fundamental connection to how you're feeling, what your energy is like, the state of your nervous system. So it's, it's like a self care practice. in and of itself. And, um, so I think the reason that people are crashing and burning so much is because we have not been pacing ourselves. It's an act of pacing yourself, Cyclomanus. We, um, push ourselves and we push ourselves to perform to meet the standards of what our culture or society or times expect of us. And they are inhuman, can I say, actually. And everyone is crashing and burning. Also, it's not like, you know, we have a huge mental health crisis. Well, I'm talking about the UK, but I'd say it's well, you know, in Western, um, first world places, it's huge mental health, um, and exhaustion. And of course we're, you know, we're exhausting the planets as well. You know, it's on all levels, this, um, extractive, Consciousness, this pushing and taking and, and, um, and not honoring the organic nature of our being sufficiently. And so, um, the other important aspect of the menstrual cycle is that it's a feedback system. It's giving you feedback. So when you're practicing awareness, cycle awareness. And, and the great feedback moment is premenstrually, premenstrual syndrome is feedback moment. Um, uh, if you can listen to that, it's telling you about the state of your health, your energy, your nervous system, even more. And if you can listen to that and take appropriate action, you are, Supporting and nourishing your health ongoingly. So yes. Then you come into your forties and yes, there is a change in the forties. You're getting older folks, you're getting older, and we come into our forties imagining we can still do what we did in our twenties and thirties. And Am I going to, I'm going to hand it over to Shawni now because Shawni is in her forties and has gone through this and it's textbook stuff.

Sjanie: 22:56

Uh, it's so good listening to how you describe that, Alexandra, because when we look at rhythms, for example, the day night rhythm, we know that what we do during the day, we can get away with a lot because the days are designed for the use of energy and awakeness. But if we keep going through the night in the way that we have been during the day, that's when we get the feedback. So at night, then you, you start to feel irritable. Um, Your immune system lowers, you can't focus anymore, you get brain fog, you know, all the things happen when you aren't honoring that second half of the cycle in the day night rhythm, that's the night time. And the same is true really through our menstruating years. The earlier part of our menstruating years, our twenties and thirties are more like the day. It, you know, we, we talk about them as being the in a spring and in a summer of menstruating years, but then you come to your forties and now you're coming into the evening, um, or the, in the autumn of your menstruating years. And that is where the feedback starts to come. So you are starting to notice the life you've lived thus far and the accumulation of stress and all the underlying health issues, the emotional issues, all the stuff that hasn't been tended to and cared for starts to come up for review and for your attention. So, um, we absolutely do change in our 40s and actually it gets much harder to stay connected to ourselves in our 40s because we, um, Because we're so used to that doing energy and requires a whole different kind of way of being we have to, we have to change. Like I'm somebody who used to be really, really full on like go, go, go. Um, and I am having to discover myself as somebody who does less, who Um, has less capacity who can't push in the same way because when I do, I really, really feel it. The fallout is big. Um, so this is what I'm noticing in my 40s is I can't get away with things like I used to. And it's harder to connect with myself because there's a lot more going on. I'm feeling things more deeply. Um, it's, uh, I, I get more stressed easily. Um, and when we're stressed, we disconnect and so on. So it is definitely harder, but cycle awareness is the constant. Returning home. So even if your cycles are changing in your forties, if you keep paying attention, you keep that connection to yourself and you stay in a cycle of wellbeing. And that means when you come to menopause, um, you aren't. at the end of your tether, you know, you aren't completely overwhelmed and your nervous system isn't completely shot and your adrenals aren't totally exhausted and so on. Yeah. There's something left in the tank, which is really important.

Alexandra: 26:16

I just really want to emphasize something now. Shani, you know, you are, yes, you have to be so much more boundaried and you are fierce about your self care the way you never were. But the thing I want to draw out here now is that your authority, you know, your, your inner strength is huge. And, um, You know, you, you are immensely productive. It's, it's, it's, I mean, I don't think you've ever been more creative or more. That is very true. And this is what I, yeah, people in the pre mainstream can relate to this. So I'm, um, much more effective and much more potent. I do less, but what I do, I really do. And, uh, and that's because I'm more aligned. than I was when I was younger. I know my business more and I'm also much more discerning. I, I only do what it is I really, really matters to me. So yeah, that's one of the great gifts of the 40s. Yeah. A real sense of power and mastery is growing and I think that's really important to name here. It's very, very juicy.

Ann Marie: 27:34

Juicy. And you talk in the book about, you know, for a while you are dying. You feel like you're dying. And Alexandra, you talk about being less present in your reality. And this is a potent time because it's not just about our hormones. It's obviously a mid, midlife crisis, a hero, hero's journey. There's all that stuff going on of where I've been, am I happy about it, where I'm going, I'm going to die. I realized that. Maybe in a way I haven't realized before. And if you feel like you're dying, you're trying to do all that while you're going through the hormonal changes. And what I see all the time is women just trying to get back, almost doubling down instead of listening, right? Like, I know, I know I did. I know I doubled down and tried to do the exact thing. I didn't know even about perimenopause. But I tried to double down and exercise more and do more and do the hard things. Do, do, do, do. Do you see this in people? What do you tell them? Because is that the first reaction a lot of the time?

Sjanie: 28:44

I'm just thinking how, when anything changes in our lives, when anything shifts, our first reaction is how can I hold on to what was, I think that's just a very, normal, actually, I want to say healthy, like egoic response, because there's something in our psyches that just feels much safer in what we've known. And when things start to change, we're start, we're coming into an unknown. We don't know ourselves. We we've changed. We don't know who we are. And there is this cultural expectation for us to be a certain way. Like we don't have a culture that says, Oh yes. No, in your forties, you're going into the inner autumn of your life. It makes complete sense that you would start to pare down and get more discerning and begin to change gear. That makes sense because at menopause in the inner winter of your life, you're going to be coming to a stop. So you want to stop. Stop, you know, preparing the nest and beginning to make changes. We don't have that. And we don't have role models of that. So it truly is the unknown because there's no cultural context for it. And, and I think it's a very normal response to think, okay, like, how can I save myself? You know, how can I, how can I maintain the status quo? And we go to the things we've always known that work, you know, doing more generally gets praised and validated. Trying harder is something that's always been celebrated in our culture, you know, heart better exercise, all those things are what we return to. Um, and we don't have the tools that are needed to navigate this different context, um, because it requires different things. It's a different time and we need different tools. We need different modes of operating. So, yeah, I think that's very, very. normal and very much to be expected. And if that's all we know, we're going to run into the crisis, which so many are, you know, burnout, major health issues. Perimenopause is really only known for the symptoms. No, that's when people talk about perimenopause, they mean, how many symptoms are you suffering from? Um, and actually it, this shouldn't be a time of symptoms. There's that's not, um, it's not, uh, what's the word? I'm trying to say it's not necessary, but it's not powerful, the course it's, it's the fallout of not respecting the gear change.

Alexandra: 31:30

Exactly. Not adjusting yourself. Um, that's it. And I, again, once again, I really want to emphasize this is not a weakness. I want to say it again. This is not a weakness. This is you getting older and you needing to do things differently. And as you feel that change, as Shani said, you want to double down on what you know, it's an existential crisis. crisis moment, you know, of recognizing, yikes, I'm getting older, what's it all about? Who am I? And it is reallyand to meet those questions in yourself because theyit's pretty classic when you step into your 40s, you know, around say, 42 you suddenly feel the kind of change within you. Um, I don't wantit's not It doesn't mean you're in menopause. God, no, your forties are sacrosanct. I want to keep the forties as this very, very potent time of coming into mastery and you, uh, you're asked to adjust and really come into, well, who am I really? Because a lot of the time we're doing performance stuff to meet what the world thinks we should be doing. And, um, and that's really depleting us and in your 40s, you're really beginning to feel that more, you know, well, what am I really about and you're going to get that question big time when you get to menopause. So you want to do your homework now folks to set yourself up well for menopause because it's not going to feel good otherwise. But you, you start to just, as Shani said, become more discerning. And more aware of your boundaries, more aware of your needs. And don't, don't see it as a weakness. I'm saying it again. See it as a refining process of coming in alignment with yourself. And then you start to feel this growing sense of clarity and Inner strength growing. It's a new kind of strength emerging. And you still have energy in the tank, folks. You still have, you've got it. You just haven't got what you had when you were 20, which is, you know, back to that time. And Charlie go, I mean, I do.

Sjanie: 33:54

Well, I just, I really want to pick up this piece is so good. I've not heard you be so emphatic about it, but it's true because this is perceived as we're falling apart. It's weak. We're not. We, we're becoming more irrelevant in society and not capable and so on. What's actually really going on is that we are waking up to power. And it's, it's a power that the world. doesn't understand, actually. It's a very particular kind of power that is rooted in our own authority. Because in our younger years, we really project our power onto other people. You know, we see something else as Being the standard de facto, you know, what it should be all these shoulds that we try to aspire to all boy here in your 40s and in menopause, you are now coming back to yourself, being the gold standard, you know, it's you, you start to go, Oh, it's all in me. And there's this recognition of yourself. And when Alexandra talks about this alignment that starts to happen in your forties, it's because you stop playing to other people's agendas and societal agendas. And that's why people get so pissed off with older women, because we Don't care as much and we're not willing to play the game and be nice and do what you what's going to make you feel good. We're much more interested in getting on our own side and living our lives and doing what we know will make us feel good and ultimately, therefore, being able to serve and give something to the world. Yeah, so this is power waking up in us.

Ann Marie: 35:57

Do you have any theories about where that's coming from? Because what surprises me, and I know this has been going on for decades, but it's coming from other women, um, my age. Portraying it as this and portraying often one answer or one solution, usually in the form of hormone therapy. This platform, I really balance it all from mainstream to functional medicine. I take no opinions. Other than a few narratives that I reject outright that this is a deficiency or a disease, but it feels like it's coming from somewhere. It feels like there's a fear of that power. And sometimes I think the women who are promoting that narrative, I don't know what they're going through, but collectively they're going through something. I don't know. Do you have any opinions about any of this?

Sjanie: 36:47

The bit that got me was when you said, do you think there's a fear of this power? I thought, oh yes, yeah.

Alexandra: 36:59

Because you're going to cause trouble. You're going to upset the apple cart, seriously. Um, I really, I want to really pace something here from what you're speaking, Anne Marie. I just, because there is, I want to just really, uh, acknowledge all those people who really are suffering horribly and, and, you know, still have to go to work, still have to put food on the table for their children, and they're not sleeping at night. I almost feel like I want to cry saying all this, you know. And, you know, and yet there's still support, you know, they're expected to turn up and perform like they were 20 year olds again, you know, still at work. And it's, and, and also, of course, you're going through an inner death about your whole identity. And you'll be comparing yourself to all the younger people who don't have that going on and so are so innocent and think they're the freaking bee's knees. And they should feel that by the way. I want them to feel like they're the bee's knees. But you now are going through a serious inner workout. And to find your true power and authority. So, but you've got to die to the old first, and you're in a place of not feeling great about yourself because of that. And because there's no language around this, what, you know, what they're going through, no affirming, dignifying language, which is what we're trying to give. So you're feeling awful, and you've got to go out there and work every day. And, um, so I just really want to acknowledge that. And, and. And in my book, my feelings about, for instance, all the hormonal stuff is I'm very happy. I'm very grateful that modern medicine exists for the emergencies. I had need of it myself last year when I got sepsis. And did I argue with the antibiotics? No, I did not argue. I said, yeah, give them to me. I want to stay alive. So, you know, but it is a Band Aid. It's not, and you know, they're important and useful, but it's, um, so I do want to just name that. And what people are experiencing, what women are experiencing, is this crisis of never, of the menstrual cycle itself never having been valued, of cyclical life not being valued, that we only honor one gear in this culture, which is, you know, top gear. keeping going at all costs. And it's destroying everything, our psyches, the soil, you know, the earth, everything. It's, um, and this and menopause is a massive feedback moment on the state of the nation, actually on the state of the planet. I feel so strongly about this, that it isn't just the state of my health, But it's the state of our world. And so, you know, but there's little old you not sleeping at night and you've still got to go to work next day. Frankly, you couldn't care about the state of the world. You just want to get to work next day and feel okay. Give me those hormones. How great if there was a bigger conversation going on. in which yes, the hormones are there. And yes, you may be taking them, but you're also aware you're feeling dignified within a larger conversation, which is what our work is trying to do, which is what our book is about. Um, and if, um, if you can be held in that larger conversation and held in communities that hold that larger, larger conversation. So for instance, uh, menopause course, uh, we, Menopause the Great Awakener, which we run every year in November, um, online. And, um, you can come back, you only pay once, you can come back year after year, so you can travel through your menopause during our course again and again. And you're held in this, and you're fed this message, this message of, uh, spiritual awakening. You are awakening to yourself. You're, you're, and all that you're suffering, you're, the crap you feel has a meaning in that process of awakening to yourself. And, and so our work, our approach gives meaning to the difficulties, the emotional difficulties that you're, you're confronting within yourself. And that is dignified. And the moment it is dignified, you can start to feel differently. You can start to feel seen, you can start to feel validated. That is medicine, Anne Marie. This is absolutely profound foundational medicine and you can make different choices. from that place. You can, you start to get, you, you make, you get much sharper about what you're going to do and not do. You still give thanks if you're, if you're taking your hormones, you know, you give thanks for them, but you don't abandon all the other things that are so important to be doing. A lot that we talk about in the book, and we're talking about the psycho spiritual stuff, but also there's lots of really good practical health information, natural health information that is core to building well being and to supporting you through menopause, and you're setting yourself up for post menopause life perfectly.

Ann Marie: 42:28

You've been through it, Alexandria, you're going through a shanty. What are some of your sort of top tips for people to help this?

Sjanie: 42:41

Yeah. So if we look at menopause itself, so we said menopause is an, in a winter, I think it's very helpful just to think of it as a life stage or phase that is a season of one's life. Um, so. That's really important is to give it just a context of it being a phase, which it is, because as you know, when we're in a phase, almost always feels like this is the new normal and it's going to be like this forever. Uh, we so quickly go into that, like, Oh, this is who I am now. This is how it's going to always be. I'm never going to be able to like function again or whatever the case might be. So it's really helpful to remind yourself that you are in a life stage. You're in a season of your life and different seasons of our lives need different things. So the inner winter of our lives, you know, nature is such a beautiful guide and mirror for what's needed at menopause because menopause is a pause as the name suggests. It's a separation from the life you've lived and it's a space, a time between times. Where you get to step out of the momentum and review, take stock, reconnect, replenish, come back to contemplation within yourself and to re kind of kindle your connection with your true self and to sort of find a new resting in yourself before you then step into There's a whole nother cycle post menopause, you know, there's the, the second spring is your post menopause life. And then it's followed by a summer. And then, you know, Alexandra is still rocking it somewhere in the autumn or yeah, probably in the autumn of your post menopause life. Hey, Alexandra. Yeah. Yeah. So looking to nature, I think is, is a really good guide for that. Alexandra, what are the tips you want to add?

Alexandra: 45:18

Yeah. Um, I want to, uh, I want you to know the menopause is on your side. It's not the enemy. And the big tip I want to give you is listen to what's coming up in you and do not dismiss it. That's mad. You may not be able to act on things straight away, but just honor the thoughts you have, because the closer you get to menopause, you are going to, uh, just notice things that that you're going to be suddenly finding yourself thinking things, wanting to do things, you'll probably find you want to say no to an awful lot of stuff, but you don't know what to replace it with yet, you know, but you just go, no, no, no, no, that's over, that's over. And you may even think that about the current job. You are doing and going, now this job, I'm done with it. But of course you still have to go to work cause you, you know, you need an income and you don't know what else to do yet, but don't dismiss the thought because you don't know what you're going to do. Just honor the thought, just honor the thoughts that come and just pace them. And now the critical thing here is more than anything else, along with just honoring what's coming up is you need more time and space for yourself. That is bottom line. So just really hear me on this. You need more time and space for yourself, and you need to get ruthless about this. But conveniently, there's a very particular power, I've just mentioned it, that gets unleashed at menopause, which is the power of no. You will actually find yourself saying no, as I've just said. You'll just go, no, no, no. No, no. And people will think you're negative, by the way. You're not. You just don't know what else you want yet. You just know. It's boundaries. You're saying yes to yourself when you say no. You're putting a boundary in the place. And people aren't going to like it, by the way. Just letting you know, because they have to change. It's not just you that changes, because you're changing, you're changing the dynamic of the people around you. Your family, your children aren't going, you're not going to be there for your children in the same way. They're not going to like that because they're going to have to grow up. Your partner, they've got to renegotiate the relationship with you. And you know, there are conversations that this is normal. This is healthy. Nothing is going wrong. So really remember that you are changing the dynamic of the people around you. And no one likes having the dance steps changed. And when they're changed, we stand on each other's feet. But when you recognize that the nature of transitions, you, you, you, you, you're aware of it. You go, yeah, yeah, this is par for the course. I always have this, I've got this lovely story. that I love telling. An Italian woman, she'd been a classic Italian mother, you know, there for children doing everything, and she suddenly wanted to go back to work again. She was a speech therapist or something, I can't remember. She got this job in this town for, you know, required a car ride. And in the car, she had time and space for herself, but she started having all these thoughts. And one day she had the thought, things have to be different at home. And she You know, the, the, it's such a dangerous thought there. You get really dangerous thoughts and a pause. She thought things have gotta be different, and she had a dignity to herself. She basically came home and said to her family, her husband and her two daughters, she said, um, things have to be different. She had a meeting around the kitchen table and she said. I am not going to be there for you in the way I used to be. And the daughters were squirming and they would say, dad, dad, can't you put something in a tea? Cause dad happened to be a doctor. And you know, uh, you know, because of course they were going to have to change. And I love this story one because of, you know, things are going to be different, but it was her dignity with herself. And I think when you have time and space for yourself, You have the thoughts, but you also have space to feel your rising dignity with it, to assert that.

Ann Marie: 49:50

And when you talk about relationships, I mean, when you start changing like this, you lose some, you lose some friendships. It's really painful. I lost a very close friendship. And I've experienced it in my family where, um, when you realize where you haven't been truthful and you're scared of being truthful and you are truthful and maybe it doesn't go well, can you just talk a little bit about help, how to help women through that? That is, for me, that's been very painful.

Alexandra: 50:22

Wow. You know, we can't control everything, Aunt Marie. And, the thing is, the more conscious you are, about what you're going through. And the more space and spaciousness and pacing you can bring to it, the more present you're going to be. And I think it's when we don't understand, we'll be much more reactive, and then we'll get much more reaction back. So I think, uh, some relationships may not last the course, but they may end. In a way that feels better and I and they may not end at all. I mean, I'm now thinking of another story. Um, it's actually in our book wise power of a woman who just she said to her husband one day, you know, well, basically, I don't want to go on as before. And I don't know what to do. the future holds something to that effect. And she went off and did a lot of therapy. And, you know, she didn't know the answer and her husband was left hanging. He did not know the answer. Um, and, um, she did a lot of inner work and, uh, I think they did some work together in the end and they are still together. And, um, you see, she paced, I think she did that with immense respect for him, but honesty. And this is where the partner has to grow up and they have to hold their own emotions and feelings and they have, he had to obviously do his inner work. He could have just reacted and, you know, and not owned his side of things and, and it's a testament to their relationship actually. And in a way you're testing your, I'm talking here about our partners. Husbands are wives. Um, um, you're testing the strength of the relationship because on the other side of menopause, you're going to want a different relationship. It's, it's, you are going to ask a different quality of connection, a different quality of intimacy, and you can't go on as before. So actually the relationship does will need to go through a workout. And, and I also want to acknowledge the other side, you know, Both sides, you know, I want to care for both sides here. And, and, you know, there's no pass or fail here. It's, you know, it's the rigors of being a human being and all our different needs, but you know, get support. But the more you can pace, the more awareness you have of what you're going through, I think the better you will handle. Uh, you're the, the kind of fierce energy that's coming up in you and use it more wisely. And then sometimes you don't because that's the nature of menopause. And, you know, again, it's just really good to

Sjanie: 53:26

remember that menopause is an ending. And, you know, we sometimes talk about it as the great house clean, um, because it is about Um, really coming back to what is absolutely it for you. And that's true in relationships as well. So no matter how well you handle it, sometimes. a relationship, a friendship is just over because it is not it anymore. And there's just, you know, that's why grief is such a big part of menopause because there's a lot of ending, a lot of letting go. And, um, and there's, and therefore a lot of grief. It's part of the nature of menopause. Yeah.

Ann Marie: 54:13

You write really gently about the topic of suicide and how some women haven't made it and this is spoken about in the media a lot because this time of life, I think the suicide rates are highest for men and women still grossly more for men, but can you just speak to that a little bit, how you how you decided to address it and how you've You've seen it and experienced it?

Alexandra: 54:45

Yeah. Ah, my heart. We know women who took their lives, so it's very close to the bone, this one. We know of and know. Um, there's a lot to say. Menopause. Gosh, you know, I feel tears welling about this. It's just such a tragedy. So I'm going to speak to the very big picture, actually, I think, which is the fact that we do not understand psychologically and spiritually what's happening at menopause. And we are not sufficiently resourced, both physically, but emotionally, emotionally. to meet that challenge. Because menopause is a psychological death and rebirth. It's a death of the ego. And that, you know, there's, it's very easy to say those words, but to feel that death of the ego in one's own being is shocking. And then this whole conversation is held within a culture that does not value older women. And there's this like this idea that you're falling off a cliff at menopause into irrelevancy. And to our souls, that is profoundly shocking, profoundly shocking to feel you are relevant. We all need to feel we are meaningful. And at menopause, what you're doing is you're really going through a workout to find, what am I about? What is the meaning of my life? And finding where your true authority, your true power lies. It's huge. And as you meet it in the way that we frame it and hold it, man, it is total liberation. But to get to that liberation you have to face, we call it betrayal, actually, that first phrase, that death moment, because it feels like life betrays you. You know all the promise you had of your life, and you're suddenly realizing, oh my God, I'm not going to realize this, or I'm not, because I mean, for some who want children who've never had them. This is it. Of course, it's the end. Um, but because you're getting older, there's a sense of, oh, I'm never going to make it with my life, you know, and do something meaningful. Well, all the achievements I've made in my life have come post menopause. Truly, I mean, I am fulfilling something that I've been holding all through my, you know, before I came to menopause, my life did not amount to much. And all I can say is thank God for cycle awareness, because my cycle kept rooting me in each month when I bled, I got reminded I was okay, I was okay. I mean, that's a whole separate conversation. People should read our book wild genie. Wild Power. I mean, Wild Power, Wild Genius was my first book. So, Wild Power. Too many wilds here. It's getting wild here. Wild Power. And then of course, Wise Power is the menopause book. So I was, I was being reminded. Every time I bled, I dropped into menstruation. I would go, Oh yeah, I know there is something at work. I could feel my genius. I could feel my calling. So by my late forties, I had a sense of being inside something. So when I came to meet that ego death moment, and it is painful, Oh my God, you're confronted by your shadow side. And if you haven't been able to do your inner work before at all, and if you've got wounding in your system, real, you know, historical trauma that you have not been able, supported in, you know, had the resources to attend to, you get the fall out of that in a very huge way. And it feels like that death feels like the end and that there is no future. And it feels literally like the end. And if there's no support around you, if there's no one seeing you, we need what we need in this world is post menopause women who hold this space and go, I see you. I hold you. Yes, you are dying. And you've got to really face this because as you face it, you're going to grow up. I can't save you from this. You know, I have to say this, I can't save you, but I witness you, I witness you and I dignify what's happening. And I want to see you resourced and I want to support you to have the resources you need so you can meet this cut, this ending. And when you're held in there, uh, you, you can, you come through it, but when you are exhausted, It's, I mean, if there's adrenal exhaustion in the system, massive, if you have been living very outside yourself for too long, that will hit you. Um, and if you have no understanding of the, the psychological and spiritual story of your, of menopause, um, um, yeah, if you're not supported, if you're alone and lonely, yeah, it can be very easy to just give up. At that point, take that no, that cut very literally, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a no to the egoic forces because you're being opened up to spiritual forces and to the deep self in you. Um, but if you're not aware of that picture, if you've had no taste or preparation for it, then that no feels like the end. Annie, do you have anything to add to that?

Sjanie: 1:01:13

It's just very, yeah, hearing you say all that, wow.

Ann Marie: 1:01:18

Okay, I have two more questions. One is kind of big, but I feel like, um, the world is waking up to sort of the corruption and fakery that's happening in the structures that we always believed in. You know, I call myself a recovering journalist because I, I don't really believe in my craft anymore, except how I learned to do it, but I don't see a lot of it out there. Financial planning, um, government, like, you know, where do you want to look? Things just aren't what we thought they were. And at the same time, we're having this, Surge of information about the quantum world and consciousness and how science is sort of affirming that we're part of something larger. And we came from it and we go to it and it's right there. And people are talking about jumping timelines and all sorts of things. And people are going through menopause and perimenopause during this. So I just want to. ask you, do you have any idea what I'm talking about? And is this, is this torquing things up a bit? Do you think?

Alexandra: 1:02:30

Uh, Sharni, I think you should respond to this, but I'm going to say something.

Ann Marie: 1:02:33

I love it.

Sjanie: 1:02:37

I'm fascinated by what you're asking. Do you think you can ask it in a slightly different way? That I just, I want to, I want to follow the thread of this.

Ann Marie: 1:02:46

Well, we're all going through, you know, say I'm going through menopause, I've gone through it and people are in perimenopause and you have this internal chaos, but you have the outer chaos of the world. But at the same time, you're moving into this place of inner knowing and the ability to say no and have boundaries and discernment. The world, the scientific community is providing us with evidence that that is real and that the things that we've been told are woo woo are actually backed up in science. And that, you know, so I just find this two sides of it. I actually started out to just talk about the corruption side of it. And then when we were talking, I got the idea for the sort of quantum consciousness side of it. But I'm feeling all of that at once, a tremendous sort of betrayal in the world, and also this beautiful assurance in what it actually is. And so I just wondered if I'm crazy or what that illuminate anything.

Sjanie: 1:03:53

Yes. I've got a lot running through my system now, as I take that in. So yeah, what Alexandra said about the cycles within cycles that the world is going through, you know, I would say humanity is going through. a big initiation. I mean, COVID was such piercing, interrupting moment, much like menstruation and menopause come along and interrupt the momentum and create a big gear shift that causes people to review their life and what's going on in such a strong way. I mean, COVID was really a menstrual menopause moment. And that initiation is continuing. We really, I'm with you, we really are at the kind of pointy end of something. In humanity, and what you said there about the simultaneous chaos, corruption, projection of power, abuse, and all of the fallout that's happening alongside, um, renaissance, like revelation, awakening, people being able to see more clearly, uh, and discoveries happening. That makes complete sense to me in terms of what I know. about cyclical life. So I'll talk about the menstrual cycle experience, because that's what I'm living in my forties. The moment before bleeding, which is mirrored by the way, in the menopause experience, is really holds, we sometimes call this space, we call it the void and Alexandra mentioned this word betrayal, but it really holds this quality of heaven and hell within it. And that's so much of what the power of initiation is about. It is facing death in order that we might awaken and expand and really see beyond what we have seen before. Um, and I feel that is what's happening in the world, you know, the revelations that are happening in science that are helping us to, in very tangible ways, recognize that we are interconnected, have really, I believe, been born out of this incredible suffering of separation that we've all been in. The, the, the, the suffering has what's. Almost birthed this need to know this need to see this need to realize that we are all inextricably linked and, uh, and that we all affect each other. Um, and that it's, that happens at a very subtle level, you know, our thoughts affect the environment around us and so on and so forth. So, yes, I mean, I think, um, I think you've hit on something really important. It's kind of the application of cyclical wisdom when we want to look at. world circumstances. It's very interesting.

Ann Marie: 1:07:07

So I could talk to you all day, but I'm going to ask you one more question. What, how should we be defining menopause then? How do you define it in a way that's different from the definition we know?

Sjanie: 1:07:25

I might start with something quite practical because the medical system has co opted the definition of menopause And I feel that really doesn't do justice to the experience. So menopause is defined as when you have stopped bleeding for one year. So it's defined as a moment. And I think the first thing that is important to recover is that menopause isn't a moment, it is a transition. It is a stage and a phase that happens For anywhere between two or three to five years, something like that. And that starts before the cessation of bleeding and goes on beyond it. and that it is a psychological emotional process along with the hormonal change that happens. And that then immediately makes sense of the bigger experience that we're all having. And I know even as I say that I can kind of feel myself relax because already now that definition is holding something that's much more true for so many people, uh, rather than that never narrow definition. So that's the first thing I would like to become de facto when it comes to the definition of menopause. Alexandra, what would you like to add?

Alexandra: 1:09:02

It's interesting. It's a really interesting question. Um, Menopause is the um, I want to say, okay, I'll just say, it's like, it's, it's the, why am I stalling on this thought? Maybe, I think you know. Maybe it's, maybe it's true. Well, I mean, in a very basic way, it is an initiation into a more expanded consciousness. So. It's actually the end of your, I want to say personal life, the end of it, and, and it's the beginning of, um, your stepping into this expanded consciousness. That is beyond just your personal stuff. So I want to say at MetaPause, you get over yourself. You just get over yourself at its fundamental level. But it is this stepping into, uh, instead of serving your family, and, you know, all that sort of keeping that show on the road or Yeah, or the workforce. For the workforce, you know, whatever you're doing, keep it, you are, um, stepping into this quantum consciousness, if you like. Now, that's what I was thinking when you were talking about this expanded consciousness, where you feel yourself held in something greater. And you It's about the world. It's not about me anymore. I mean, yes, I have my moments where I go, Oh, me, poor little me, you know, but actually it's like, Oh, get over yourself. So you're not, you're not that important. And I am important, you know, in the sense of serving what I've come to serve. So it's menopause. is the unleashing of who you truly are.

Ann Marie: 1:11:13

Okay, ladies, can you tell us about your course that you were having in November, where you usher, help to sit with people going through menopause?

Sjanie: 1:11:22

Yes. Our course, Alexandra's mentioned the name Menopause the Great Awakener. And if that's not an enticing title, I don't know what is. And in fact, that would be a good definition of menopause is that it's great awakener. Um, so it's a six week online course where we guide. people through the five phases of the menopause initiation, um, which we describe in our book, Wise Power, these five phases of the psychological and spiritual initiation of menopause. But in the course, we're actually, um, guiding people in an experience To really understand the inner workings of these phases and we're giving people the tools and the practices that will support them through these phases of menopause. So not only do you get the map, but you also get equipped with the tools to be able to navigate it. And then as Alexandra said, you get to come back year after year. So one year, you might be in the first phase of menopause, which is called betrayal. Um, and then the following year, you might find yourself in the next phase and a different aspect of the course will become more meaningful and more supportive to you. So you really get to be accompanied through this process as long as it goes on. And there are people who have come for four or five years, and I want to say they've graduated through menopause and, you know, had their moment of kind of celebrating themselves really feeling on the other side of it. There's a very strong sense of community. We've got a beautiful team of, uh, mentors that support the course that offer listening circles, as well as the live sessions. So you have both the teachings by Alexandra and I and these guided processes, and then you have these beautifully held listening circles. Um, and then this online community space where we just You know, we cry a lot, don't we Alexandra, just reading what people say. We do, we do. And honesty and realness and the way that people on the course accompany each other is just unlike Anything else, you know, it is really the place to come if you wanna be held in this, you know, new story of menopause as we like to call It really is understanding menopause is a place of power and awakening.

Ann Marie: 1:13:58

Well, people have a lot of time to think about it or quite a bit of time that's coming in November. And I guess follow your social channels and, um, sign up for your newsletter perhaps to get all the news and the opportunities.

Sjanie: 1:14:10

You can sign up for, um, be put on the waiting list. Um, and we'll email you in October. If you go to red school.net/menopause, you can sign up there.

Ann Marie: 1:14:21

Okay. Well, I can't thank you enough. This has been wonderful for me and I hope it is for everyone who's listening. I'm sure it will be. It's lovely to connect with you. You're doing amazing work. Thank you.

Alexandra: 1:14:32

I, I have just so enjoyed. this conversation with you. It's felt very, um, satisfying and I don't know, I felt terrific.

Sjanie: 1:14:44

Yeah, I agree. It was such a pleasure. It felt so real and alive and easy to, yeah, yeah, to share what we know and love. Thank you very, very much. Hot Flash Inc. was created and is hosted by Anne Marie McQueen, produced and edited by Sonia Mack. The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purpose of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider, read all labels, and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem, i. e. menopause or anything else, or any healthcare questions, please promptly see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Anne Marie McQueen and any producers or editors, disclaim any responsibility from any possible adverse effects from the use of any information contained herein. Opinions of guests on this podcast are their own and the podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about a guest's qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Hot Flash Inc Media.